Hello and welcome to this week's edition of World View with me, Suhasini Haidar. Is it time for India to take its place in the spotlight? We are talking this week about a push for a permanent seat at the United Nations Security Council. In fact Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is making that demand himself once again at the United Nations General Assembly. In fact even before he had left for the US he had made it clear that UN reforms - in particularly the expansion of the Security Council - is really India's focus in this the 66th session. Remember India along with Germany, Brazil and Japan, known as the G4, tabled a resolution demanding a permanent spot on the Security Council back in 2005. The Prime Minister in fact there very much to thank all of those who voted for India as a non-permanent member last year as to make the pitch for a permanent seat now.
And as we said, the demand for India to be included dates back to as long as the UN itself perhaps. The UN Security Council began in 1946, the first meeting that was attended by the five principle nations: France, China, UK, US and USSR. China in its early avatar, before it became a Communist People's Republic. In 1954 interestingly Prime Minister Nehru in fact declined an offer to join the Security Council until China's status was clear over there.
India doing China in fact a favour with that.
In 1963 the number of non-permanent seats were increased from 6 to 10, this is the only time when the Security Council has in fact been reformed. In 1974 is when the reform process perhaps got under way. The Special Commission set up with clearly decades later no movement. In 1993 once again, the then Security General Kofi Annan appointed a special panel to try and look at UN Reform, particularly whether the Security Council could be increased. In 1996 it significantly lost the election for a non-permanent seat to Japan and in 2010 perhaps hope for India once gain rekindled on the Security Council issue where India won a non-permanent seat with a 187 votes of the 192.
The question tonight: 'Is India's quest for a Security Council permanent seat a possibility or just a pipedream?' Let's bring in our guests. We have a very eminent panel today. Joining us in our studio, Arundhati Ghosh, she is India's former UN ambassador, in fact Ambassador to the UN office is there in Geneva, she had served in the United Nations in the 70s as well. Also joining us a very special guest, Ambassador Thomas, he is Germany's ambassador to India. Remember Germany is very much shoulder to shoulder with India on a quest for a permanent seat at the Security Council. Also Richard Roth, he is there at the UN, he is senior UN correspondent for CNN joining us and the man perhaps of the moment this week, Hardeep Puri, he is really the man who is going to put India's voice across in the next two years particularly as India makes that pitch for the seat.
Ambassador Hardeep Puri, I'd like to come to you first and like to ask you the question: are we any closer? We have seen another UNGA this year. There is no movement on reform. It's been as we were documenting 30 years as the reform process was even looked at. Is India any closer to its dream?
Hardeep Puri: I think yes. We have moved significantly closer to the final outcome, but I will not go to the extent of saying that we have reached the destination point. Some hard negotiations remain and we will have to in the coming months ensure that we are able to consolidate the gains and work forward to achieve our ultimate objective.
Suhasini Haidar: But the question really in this session, this 66th session: are you expecting any movement because the prime minister has made it clear that this is at the top of his agenda?
Hardeep Puri: I expect movement during the 66th session. But I think there is often a tendency to think that there will be movement during the next 7 or 10 days. During the high level segment or during the course of the general debate. Let me tell you two negotiations take place during this10 day's period. Heads of state and government have their foreign ministers come and make statements. But they may during the course of those statements reiterate the need for reform of the Security Council. But the actual negotiation process may only commence sometimes after mid October or end October.
Suhasini Haidar: The kind of viewer comment we got continuously on this particular issue and it's amazing how many across the country are really fired up with the idea of a permanent seat at the Security Council is that India remains very cautious very middle of the road when it comes to tough action. It didn't take a firm position, it didn't take a firm position, it isn't taking one on Syria just yet, it actually abstained on the vote on Libya, certainly seems to have given in the reputation of being timid and cautious. How would you respond to that?
Hardeep Puri: Yes, we were somewhat skeptical about the use of military force and our worst fears were right. The manner in which the council indulged in mission grip and mandate grip, the fact that resolution to protect civilians was used for the devastation of an entire country. I think we are smelling of roses in terms of our political judgment. So that is hardly timidity, that is far sightedness and maturity. As far as Syria is concerned, yes we have absolutely no doubt that we would not like to the Libyan experience repeated in Syria. I think the problem of timidity sometimes comes in the Indian mindset when Indian political commentators say 'oh are we going to do things in order to please x y or z', no! We represent India in the council and I have the unique privilege of doing so. We pursue India's national interest as determined in New Delhi and nowhere else.
Suhasini Haidar: Arundhati Ghosh, he is essentially making the point that India's time will come but not yet. We aren't much closer than we were at 1974. You yourself were at the UN to actually seeing that UN expansion happening. The question really is: is it a pipedream for India to think about it?
Arundhati Ghosh: A pipedream seems to imply that it's impossible. I don't think it is impossible. But it is a difficult job and it is going to be a long one because the forces against reform are very complex. Those who don't want to see power, those who do not think that the Security Council's taken on too much legislative power away from the General Assembly. And those that have rivalries, bilateral rivalries, India-Pakistan, India-China, Germany-Italy, Brazil-Mexico-Argentina, South-Africa-Nigeria-Egypt. So you got, those are different forms of...
Suhasini Haidar: In fact we in India seem to think that India is at the forefront of that race, but there are so many more. Richard Roth there at the UN, there is obviously a lot of buzz around the General Assembly this year, but do you see the idea of an expansion of the Security Council being pushed at all?
Richard Roth (UN Correspondent, CNN): Well I think the number of years I have been here is rivaling the number of potential countries that want to be on a reformed expanded UN Security Council. Progress, I think if you were here in 1993 and you left on a spaceship and then returned you would just not really had missed anything. But, right now the United Nations has many countries who wanna be on the Security Council but no agreement on who, how, what and where would a Security Council full of 25 nations even work. Certainly, the looming powers such as India, Nigeria, Brazil, I mean everybody wants to be on but they are all rivals.
Suhasini Haidar: Ambassador Mastussek, Richard Roth is essentially saying if you had gone away on a spaceship ten years ago and returned today, you wouldn't see much difference in the United Nation's own view towards the Security Council expansion. Would you say then for India as for Germany really the idea of permanent seat at this point is just a pipedream?
Thomas Mastussek (German Envoy to India): No, I don't think, I don't think that nothing has changed. A lot of things have changed. First of all we had a resolution more than five years ago where the overwhelming majority of the membership said the reform of the Security Council is necessary and is urgent. I think that the moods, the moods in the United Nations is if the UN and its highest organ want to retain their legitimacy they have to be representative and representative not in its composition of the world of 1945 but representative in its composition of the geo-political realities of the 21st century.
Suhasini Haidar: That's what they should do, Ambassador that's what they should do, do you think they will?
Thomas Mastussek (German Envoy to India): Well you know, it's like the return of the messiah. I know it's going to happen but I don't know when it's going to happen.
Suhasini Haidar: Richard Roth there in the United Nations, Ambassador Mastussek is saying its going to happen but when we don't know. What do you consider really is the biggest impediment perhaps?
Richard Roth (UN Correspondent, CNN): I think the biggest obstacle is that everybody wants power and a seat at the table but other countries don't want to let them have it. I mean there are probably deeper issues and rivalries and power but you have economic looming big powers such as India that are not able to get a seat. I mean India is on the Security Council now for two terms and playing an interesting role, its ambassador representing India saying that in issues such as Libya there were a lot of reluctance to sign on, India is for in joining with Brazil and South Africa to say wow, we don't like the aggression taken on certain countries and they had either gone along reluctantly or have held up issues such as Syria so getting on to the Council still matters to a lot of people though the UN is so deadlock at times that one wonders really the value and if it will just add to more chaos.
Suhasini Haidar: Arundhati Ghosh, Richard Roth earlier was talking about the fact that one of the big impediments for a country like India is that it hasn't taken what many countries in the United Nations would like to see, a tough position. On issues like Libya, on issues like Syria, the question really is, is India a global fence sitter? And I would like to bring in some of our viewers. Sushant writing in to say, "Do you think fencesitting on important global matters will actually help our cause for a permanent seat?" Do you think the fact that India votes to abstain a lot of time actually will work again?
Arundhati Ghosh: There are two issues here. One is that an abstention vote let me deal with that. It is not a neutral vote, an abstention vote depending on how you explain it could be a positive or a negative. It is a reservation on a particular resolution. It is a position, it is counted. I mean if you were absent that is not counted.
Suhasini Haidar: And Ambassador I think we are making it very clear that on Libya we don't regret the fact that we have restrained.
Arundhati Ghosh: Correct, correct. That is a position.
Suhasini Haidar: Ambassador Mastussek if I could ask you. Germany has of course been part of ISAF there in Afghanistan, just taking this question a little further whether India needs to take a much more active global role. Do you think India needs to take a bigger role for example in Afghanistan in order to be taken seriously on the global stage?
Thomas Mastussek (German Envoy to India): No I don't think that. I think India is playing a very responsible role not just in the region but globally. And I think it is very, very important that all members of the Security Council, permanent members and elected members take their role very seriously, very responsibly and I have to hand it to India that India does exactly that.
Suhasini Haidar: Also Ambassador many would ask the question, in this new world many call it a uni-polar world but there are so many new regional groupings. The question is that the UN Security Council permanent seat is really worth it? The heavy lifting often done by coalitions like NATO certainly when it comes to tough action in countries what we have seen in Afghanistan, in Libya. We also see India and Germany themselves getting much more done in those regional groupings like the non-aligned nations perhaps much more the G4, the IBSA, BRICS, the question, is the UN Security Council really worth it today?
Thomas Mastussek (German Envoy to India): Well you see, alliances like the NATO do not go into other countries just out of their own decision. They go there, they have been asked by the Security Council, by the UN and have the mandate, the legitimacy of the United Nations and I think its quite normal that country who on one sense belong to certain groups of friends or to certain alliances have to find a balance between what's their alliance expect them to do and their own conscience, their own responsibility as members of the Security Council. And I think India's attitude, Germany's attitude in the recent weeks and months have exactly shown that.
Suhasini Haidar: All right, you are saying, India's attitude and Germany's attitude of course it's for with Japan and Brazil that are trying one more push over there. Ambassador Mastussek I would like to ask you if Germany was offered without the other three would it accept it.
Thomas Mastussek (German Envoy to India): Of course not, of course not. What we are interested in is not in the first place just to get a seat. We are interested in the capability of the UN Security Council to work properly and we need a thorough reform. It's not about one country or other being I and out. We believe that the highest organ, the highest seat of legitimacy in this world, has to be able to function properly. And this is what we are all working for.
Suhasini Haidar: Richard Roth, Ambassador Mastussek certainly seeming to say Germany ad India are not giving up hope. What's your view there at the UN itself and the question keeps coming back; do you think that dream really is a possibility?
Richard Roth (UN Correspondent, CNN): Uh, look I don't want to quash anyone's hopes but I think in the near term no one should expect this to be resolved. The United States has certain countries they would mind being on and may privately indicate at certain nations that yes we favour you but then there is going to be a new may be administration in power within a year or five years who knows and the thing may start all over again.
Suhasini Haidar: Is it worthwhile for India to continue push in its way? Prime Minister Manmohan Singh says it is I the top of his agendas. He goes in to the UN or does it really make in a sense the country is pushing for it a bit of a laughing stock?
Arundhati Ghosh: Why? You are talking Libya, you are talking about the upsurge in the Middle East, Afghanistan. Look at the economic crisis and look at the four countries who want to be on the Security Council. Of course Security Council deals with International Peace and Security. But do you think International Peace and Security can be maintained if the economies of the world are in a tail spray. Who are the countries who everybody is looking at? So certainly with our size we should be there but it means you keep trying. Should we have given up?
Suhasini Haidar: So, there is hope at the end of the tunnel?
Arundhati Ghosh: Yeah, but you are not going to get it in the 66th session. But if you give up, you won't get it at all.
Suhasini Haidar: On that hopeful note I would like to thank you Ambassador Thomas Mastussek for joining us, also Richard Roth there at the UN as CNN's senior news correspondent. And of course our Ambassador to the UN Hardeep Puri and of course Arundhati Ghosh, thanks so much for joining us. Up ahead all those little moments that make the UN memorable and not at all serious and hard work.
Suhasini Haidar: Welcome back, we are discussing India' chances of getting a permanent seat at the United Nations Security Council. On the show of course our experts seem to be coming in with the view that no matter what it takes and no matter how long it takes its still a dream worth fighting for India's permanent seat there at the United Nations Security Council but certainly not something that's happening in the foreseeable future. Now the debate will continue on our website, ibnlive.com/worldview is the address. You can write in also post your own blog there. And vote on the issue of the week. Let's also bring in our expert this week for an expert take. Shashi Tharoor, he stood for UN Secretary General himself, he has been at the United Nations for decades, the former Minister of External Affairs here in India and we asked him of India would get that permanent seat on its own.
Shashi Tharoor: Well I don't think any one country including India will get it alone. I think either there will be a reform, a reform that opens the door to a number of contenders or there would be no reform. It's not going to be happening that India is going to get in as a permanent member leaving out Germany, Japan, Brazil, South Africa, I know that it's simply not on the cards. This is an institution which is trying to reform and revitalize itself to bring in all the relevant stake holders for effective action in the 21st century.
Suhasini Haidar: That's all we have time for here on World View but remember keep your comments coming in and before we go remember it's not all serious at the UN. The annual meeting of world leaders often throws up many unscripted moments, some very memorable ones. Thanks for watching.
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